- Caiphen Martini I wrote this to create a conversation, not to be insulted with sarcasm. Also with your slow understanding, I'll finish the conversation before it begins.10 hours ago ·
David Daniel Ball That wasn't sarcasm. The quote regarding turning the other cheek is not relevant to this. Are we to accept nuclear weapons in the hands of people who execute people and rarely provide a pretext? Are we talking about some religious divide? Are we saying that all people should have nuclear weapons? Are we saying that it is nothing that would ever be used and so we are secure? Jesus' quote is not a call for the faithful to lie with the devil. But government is secular, and the issue isn't about religion .. so where does it apply?
Is X is the centre of your faith or are you favouring rationality like me? If you are, why don't you continue the process and become an atheist? With the use of the Scientific Methodhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wi
Now I'll say this, since you are a Mathematics Major. Come on and abandon this faith nonsense. We know there is no equivalent to science. We also know the bible condemns the scientific method in its condemnation of Thomas. The bible is an enemy of human reason.
- David Daniel BallI may be wrong, that is a given, but then so may you. And it may be that neither of us has the right of it, but it is difficult to see how both may be right. But then perhaps we are both right and wrong in varying aspects. I am not trying to be insulting but to show the breadth of considerations. There are things I accept as an article of faith, but I suspect they are not what you anticipate. I have faith in God, that the world exists and that it will eventually end. I have faith in God, and believe that I am saved because of Jesus' sacrifice. I believe I am supposed to proclaim the word of God. I came to embrace Christianity having been raised as an atheist who didn't believe God was possible. My reasons for embracing God are rational. There is a spiritual dimension that took me many years to discover. I embrace that too.3 hours ago ·
- David Daniel Ball The scientific Method does not proclude God and I am happy to discuss why .. later today.3 hours ago ·
By James A. Haught
Osama bin Laden achieved a remarkable feat: He mobilized the power of religion to spur devout young men to kill themselves in order to murder defenseless strangers. Grotesquely, the suicide-killers felt they were performing holy acts that would please God and assure them martyr rewards in paradise.
The annals of faith-based killing are long: human sacrifice, the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch-hunts, Reformation wars, drowning of Anabaptists, jihads, pogroms against Jews, China's Taiping Rebellion, Mexico's Cristero War, and many modern ethnic conflicts fueled by "religious tribalism." A new phase was led by bin Laden, who orchestrated the 21st-century phenomenon of Islamic suicide-bombing. Mercifully, his personal chapter ended when Navy Seals stormed his Asian hideout on May 1.
The modern Islamic "cult of death" - the worst menace of current times - baffles most Westerners. Logical minds cannot comprehend why idealistic young men, and a few women, volunteer to sacrifice their lives to slaughter unsuspecting, unarmed folks. It makes no sense. Pundit Anthony Lewis wrote: "There is no way to reason with people who think they will go directly to heaven if they kill Americans." Columnist William Safire said the volunteers do it because their "normal survival instinct is replaced with a pseudo-religious fantasy of a killer's self-martyrdom leading to an eternity in paradise surrounded by adoring virgins." Columnist David Brooks wrote that the bizarre phenomenon is "about massacring people while in a state of spiritual loftiness."
These fanatics lack normal empathy for fellow humans. While in foreign lands or amid dissimilar ethnic groups, they don't see surrounding families as affectionate mothers, fathers and children, but as "infidels" deserving death. If the suicide-killers ever acquire nuclear devices, the unthinkable will be upon humanity.
The raid that ended bin Laden culminated a three-decade saga of "blowback." Inadvertently, the Reagan-Bush White House in the 1980s unwittingly helped ignite the Muslim terror movement that now hurts America. Here's the record:
In the late 1970s, radical reformers seized power in Afghanistan and created a Western-style government that began educating girls. Horrified, Muslim extremists and armed tribes rebelled. One of the rebel leaders was warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an extremist known for throwing acid on unveiled schoolgirls while he was in college.
Such mujahideen (holy warriors) were on the brink of toppling the new Afghan government when the Soviet Union sent its Red Army in 1979 to suppress the uprising. Globally, the Cold War was seething. To damage the Soviets, the Reagan administration secretly sent the CIA to arm, train and pay the rebel tribes to kill Russians. Hekmatyar's group got millions of U.S. dollars.
Meanwhile, ardent young Muslims from many lands rushed to Afghanistan to join the "holy war." One was Osama bin Laden, 17th son of a rich Saudi contractor who had a dozen wives. A pious Wahhabi Muslim, bin Laden used his wealth to recruit and pay fighters.
The combined CIA-zealot resistance worked. The Russians were driven out and Afghanistan's modern government was crushed. Warlords like Hekmatyar took over, but soon fought among each other. Then an Islamic student group, the Taliban, seized control and created a cruel theocracy that stoned women to death and inflicted other extreme Puritanical strictures.
Covertly, bin Laden assembled numerous former Afghan volunteers into a shadowy international network, al-Qaida, dedicated to waging jihad (holy war) against the West. His suicidal operatives helped kill U.S. soldiers in Somalia in 1993, blow up two U.S. embassies in Africa in 1998, and bomb the USS Cole in 2000.
Bin Laden issued a fatwa (sacred edict) calling on "every Muslim who believes in God and hopes for reward to obey God's command to kill the Americans and plunder their possessions wherever he finds them and whenever he can." He was indicted by U.S. authorities and put on international "most wanted" lists.
Then 19 al-Qaida suicide volunteers perpetrated the historic atrocity of Sept. 11, 2001, when they hijacked airliners and crashed them into U.S. landmarks, killing 3,000 Americans. It was the most horrifying day in the memory of most U.S. residents.
The holy killers left behind a testament they had shared among themselves, saying they were doing it for God: "Know that the gardens of paradise are waiting for you in all their beauty," they assured each other, "and the women of paradise are waiting, calling out, 'Come hither, friend of God.' They have dressed in their most beautiful clothing."
Idiocy. Infantilism. It's sickening to realize that 3,000 unsuspecting Americans died because of this adolescent male fantasy. To believe that God wants mass murder is lunacy. As famed British biologist Richard Dawkins wrote:
"The 19 men of 9/11 - having washed, perfumed themselves and shaved their whole bodies in preparation for the martyr's paradise - believed they were performing the highest religious duty. By the lights of their religion, they were as good as it is possible to be. They were not poor, downtrodden, oppressed or psychotic; they were well-educated, sane and well-balanced, and, as they thought, supremely good. But they were religious, and that provided all the justification they needed to murder and destroy."
The mastermind of this crackpottery is dead in a hail of Navy Seals' gunfire. But the suicide-martyr phenomenon he fostered probably will continue impelling idealistic young men to sacrifice their lives in massacres.
Bin Laden wasn't the sole creator of the Islamic cult of death. His Egyptian partner, Ayman al-Zawahiri, pioneered it in the 1990s. Since then, many far-flung Muslim extremist groups adopted suicide-bombing - often using it on fellow Muslims of opposing sects, or against disapproved Islamic governments. Some researchers list as many as 17,000 Muslim terror attacks since the 9/11 horror, with a total body count beyond 60,000 victims. That's an average of five murder missions per day - so many that news media ignore smaller assaults. The phenomenon has a boundless supply of righteous-feeling volunteers eager to throw away their lives to kill for God and their faith.
As Nobel Prize-winning physicist Steven Weinberg said: "For good people to do evil things, it takes religion."
(Haught is editor of West Virginia's largest newspaper, The Charleston Gazette, and is author of two books on religious violence: Holy Horrors: An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness, and Holy Hatred: Religious Conflicts of the '90s.)
- David Daniel Ball reminder, I am keeping notes here ..http://storiesthatheal.blo
gspot.com/2011/06/faith-de bate-between-former-atheis t-and.html Yesterday at 14:54 · 
Caiphen MartiniI'm sorry about your bad experiences. All I can say is that we've all had bad experiences, others sometimes more than us and vice versa. You don't have to turn to the supernatural to get your life together. There are many secular activities/institutions you can turn to for help. You know what? The nicest people that I know are infidels just like me, the medical student you met at Uni still would have been just as great if she were an atheist. Now to the point. Since we are talking about personal testimony, I was brought up a fundie Xian and was born again until I was in my 30's. Then something happened, I took my horse goggles off and discovered the world of science is far greater. I actually found Xianity to be nothing but a business, just there are some good people in it that make a difference just like there are atheists who make a difference.
As you know David, personal testimomies don't hold any credibility. The scientific method please or you're just wasting my time. This reasoning may work on someone in the church, but not me.
1 comment:
Good to restart debate. I asked you for the ultimate rational debate, for it to be based on the scientific method. I'm more than happy to continue just drop the personal testimony stuff and please don't have arguments from authority, I esteem such even less. If your argument was based on rationality I wouldn't have said
anything about you wasting my time.
Show me rationally how God can exist with today's revelations on biological and astronomical evolution. Doesn't it strike you as being highly improbable since science indicates animalia existence bourne out of a struggle for survival?
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